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  #131  
Old 02-14-2014
SPOTexas SPOTexas is offline
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For comparison...

Bortles:

Could stand to hasten his setup and polish his footwork (deteriorates under duress). Could stand to shorten his release -- wraps the ball slightly at the beginning of his windup. Too much effort in his delivery to generate slightly above-average arm strength. Operated in an offense where he made a lot of one-look reads. Does not spin spirals consistently -- too many throws come out with loose wobble (could struggle to cut the wind in blustery conditions). Ordinary deep-ball thrower. Tends to throw off his back foot when pressured (affects accuracy). Works heavily out of the gun -- will have to adapt to snaps under center and deep drops. Operates a dink-and-dunk offense which inflates his completion percentage. Fumbled nine times as a junior and could improve ball handling/security. Play dropped off against Ohio State in 2012 and South Carolina in '13 and wiill require time to adjust to the closing speed of NFL defensive backs. Is just a two-year starter and can improve his understanding of the game.

Bridgewater:

Has a very lean, narrow frame with limited bulk and small hands. Does not drive the ball with velocity down the field and can be affected by cold and windy conditions (see Cincinnati). Can improve placement and touch on the deep ball. Adequate athlete. Is not an overly elusive scrambler -- struggles escaping the rush and buying a second chance with his feet vs. pressure. Passing stats are padded from operating a passing game that relies heavily on short, lateral tosses. Long-term durability could become a concern without continued strength and weight gains.
  #132  
Old 02-14-2014
gs27 gs27 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
Just to note, nothing wrong with supporting Manziel. Differences of opinion is fine. But no reputable source is going to state Manziel is having one of the most accurate arms in 20 years. Nobody is going to compare him to Montana and nobody is going to say his accuracy is that of Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.
Your original post was "Manziel is basically a mix of Tebow and Colt McCoy" Please explain what attributes you use to liken him to Tebow, and what attributes you use to liken him to Colt McCoy

Again what did I miss?

So I googled "Johnny Manziel Joe Montana" and plenty of comparisons came up including from a scout. I do not quote others so google for yourself if necessary. Manziel and Montana are both extremely accurate with average velocity and both are exceptional at delivering accurate balls even when off balance and with varying arm angles. That is how I liken his arm talent to Joe Montana!

Below is my nonreputable analysis of Manziels skills, in my own words. Let's see yours for any player

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Originally Posted by gs27 View Post

Arm Strength – Manziel has good but not great arm strength that will not challenge Flacco, Newton, or Kaep, but has similar velocity to Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Russel Wilson.

Ball Placement – The difference between college and NFL throws is the margin of error. A throw that is 1’ behind the receiver and 2’ high in college is caught 90% of the time because receivers are frequently wide open. The same throws end up as tipped pick 6s in the NFL. Manziel is the most spot on accurate thrower I have seen in college football. He is on a level with the elite in the NFL for his ability to fit throws into tight windows. Deep throws consistently land in the bread basket in stride over the outside shoulder. Manziel throws an exceptional fade, and his screen throws consistently lead the receiver down the field, which is very rare. He made throws to all areas of the field and has an extremely high downfield completion percentage.

Pocket Awareness – Manziel will go through multiple reads when his first option is not open, does not stare down receivers and looks off safeties. He does force some throws he should eat but he completes a large percentage of them due to an incredible calmness and ability to see the field under duress. When throwing the ball away, Manziel has a knack to place it just far enough out of bounds that the d back has no chance at a pick but his receiver can try to make a great play. Manziels instincts are in a class by themselves, he seems to have eyes in the back of his head.

Pro Offense – Manziel has no experience calling plays and making adjustments at the line of scrimmage and has little experience with dropping back from under center. I have no reason to believe Johnny will be incapable of perfecting these skills in a very short period of time. At the combine, teams will likely put him on the board to test his football knowledge and retention skills, and his Wonderlic score will tell teams of his overall cognitive ability to process information. I do not see Manziel having red flags similar to Vince Young, Cam Newton, or Geno Smith, where a coach will have to simplify the play book and play call nomenclature because of his lack of retention ability.

Scrambling – Manziel is nearly impossible to bring down in the backfield. He is not on RGIIIs level for speed but his elusiveness more than makes up for the speed difference. The key that makes Manziel such an effective scrambler is that he never gives up on the pass. Outside defenders have to choose to come off coverage and give Manziel an easy completion or allow a first down scamper.

Size – Manziel looks to be around 6’-0”, 200 lbs. I think his height limits his upside but Drew Brees and Russel Wilson have shown this is not always the case. Like Brees and Wilson, Manziel has freakishly large hands for his size.

Durability – Unlike most, I have very little durability concerns with Manziel. I prefer the fact he gets out of the pocket when it collapses. Quarterbacks most frequent injuries are from standing in the pocket and having players roll over their legs. The next most common are rib injuries from pocket hits and separated shoulders from getting thrown down outside the pocket. Guess what, Johnny likes to wear, and is effective wearing the large rib protectors most QBs despise. Not only do these protect your ribs but they also decrease the distance your shoulder can compress when you get slammed to the turf. The next reason I am confident Johnny will be durable is the fact he has a compact body. Johnny’s build is more like a point guard than an Olympic sprinter. His bones are more compact, which I will not get into the complicated physics, but a bone that is equal diameter and 25% shorter is 75% stronger. I was very concerned with RGIIIs durability as a prospect, but not because of his scrambling frequency but because of his long sprinter type build with long skinny bones and very tight explosive muscles. When you look at the smaller more compact scramblers, they rarely get injured, Tarkenton, Flutie, S Young, Brees, Wilson. Shorter is better when it comes to injury concerns. Any engineers understand the durability of bones is about slenderness ratio, or length over radius of gyration for buckling, and length squared over the section modulus for moment. And the last plus for Manziel in the durability discussion is the fact that defenders will rarely ever get a clean shot at him.

Intangibles – Johnny Football is known to like to frequent a frat party here or there. What college kid does not? If Johnny was known for making it rain at the gentleman’s clubs till 3 am and was a baby daddy to 4 kids with 4 different women, than I would have an issue. From the limited resources I have available to me, he is not. He was a college student who participated in college activities. I do not think anyone would pass on the opportunities he had after winning the Heisman. All of his teammates and coaches have nothing but great things to say about him. His will to win and ability to motivate teammates is off the charts. If there are any substantiated concerns about his work ethic, I have not seen them. My one concern is the autographs that selfishly put his school in danger just so he could give the NCAA the middle finger. Hopefully he has looked back on that, realized it was a bad choice and grown from it.
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  #133  
Old 02-14-2014
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Kal El Kal El is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gs27 View Post
Your original post was "Manziel is basically a mix of Tebow and Colt McCoy" Please explain what attributes you use to liken him to Tebow, and what attributes you use to liken him to Colt McCoy

Again what did I miss?


So I googled "Johnny Manziel Joe Montana" and plenty of comparisons came up including from a scout. I do not quote others so google for yourself if necessary. Manziel and Montana are both extremely accurate with average velocity and both are exceptional at delivering accurate balls even when off balance and with varying arm angles. That is how I liken his arm talent to Joe Montana!

Below is my nonreputable analysis of Manziels skills, in my own words. Let's see yours for any player
Seriously? shishkabob ready my post and he understood it. Not really that difficult.

Quote:
He is comparing Manziel to Tebow because people have graded him higher because he has "play making" ability, same thing that was said of Tebow before he came out. Also Contrary to your belief Manziel isn't the most accurate passer in the last 20 years, look at numbers and you see Teddy B is a lot more accurate, he hits his receivers in stride more often then not, and anticipates windows opening so as soon as the receiver is open the ball is in his hands, unlike Manziel who waits until he sees the receiver open and then throws. That style doesn't work in the NFL, you have to be able to anticipate the routes being ran, and the defenses reaction, if you cant then your throws will always be a second to late
The comparison to Montana is that he's fluid. Not accuracy. And it came from an unnamed scout. ok. And I present you sources and you give me "google it" lol? You're not exactly making any points.

Dude that's nice you put a lot of effort in supporting Manziel. But this is your analysis of Manziel who you claim has an accuracy 4th in the NFL, below Brady, Brees and Rodgers. So what exactly is the point? This is how you feel about the guy? Yeah I got that, thank you.
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  #134  
Old 02-14-2014
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281Texan 281Texan is offline
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Originally Posted by gs27 View Post
If he is 180 I would not draft him either. My chip is on 6-00-3 and 204 lbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOTexas View Post
He's 210 according to John McClain after he visited with him last week.
According blah blah blah. Teams list 6' guys in their game day programs as 6'1-6'2. 180lbs, all of a sudden turns into 190. I can guarantee you he isn't 6'..I stood next to him multiple times, and he's MAYBE, MAYBE, 1 inch taller than me. I'm 5-9 to 5-10. And he's maybe 204 fully padded. That **** flak jacket is bigger than he is lol.
  #135  
Old 02-16-2014
SPOTexas SPOTexas is offline
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Originally Posted by 281Texan View Post
According blah blah blah. Teams list 6' guys in their game day programs as 6'1-6'2. 180lbs, all of a sudden turns into 190. I can guarantee you he isn't 6'..I stood next to him multiple times, and he's MAYBE, MAYBE, 1 inch taller than me. I'm 5-9 to 5-10. And he's maybe 204 fully padded. That **** flak jacket is bigger than he is lol.
Did you weigh him too? LOL

We will see his true size in a few days at the combine.
  #136  
Old 02-16-2014
Number19 Number19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOTexas View Post
For comparison...

Bridgewater:

...struggles escaping the rush and buying a second chance with his feet vs. pressure. Passing stats are padded from operating a passing game that relies heavily on short, lateral tosses...
This is not an accurate description.

Bridgewater only threw 10% screens; Carr 33%; Bortles 23% and Manziel 22%. Add in the 1-5 yard pass and Bridgewater's numbers are 43%, Carr 59%, Bortles 48% and Manziel 47%. So Bridgewater's stats were the least padded by these shorter throws.

As far as efficency under pressure, Bridgewater completed 63% of his passes, Carr 50%, Bortles 63% and Manziel 60%. Under the blitz, Bridgewater completed 77%, Carr 69%, Bortles 71% and Manziel 68%.
  #137  
Old 02-16-2014
sleeper sleeper is offline
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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
This is not an accurate description.

Bridgewater only threw 10% screens; Carr 33%; Bortles 23% and Manziel 22%. Add in the 1-5 yard pass and Bridgewater's numbers are 43%, Carr 59%, Bortles 48% and Manziel 47%. So Bridgewater's stats were the least padded by these shorter throws.

As far as efficency under pressure, Bridgewater completed 63% of his passes, Carr 50%, Bortles 63% and Manziel 60%. Under the blitz, Bridgewater completed 77%, Carr 69%, Bortles 71% and Manziel 68%.
Bravo, nicely done.
  #138  
Old 02-17-2014
the seal the seal is offline
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Anybody making a tebow comparison with manziel just blew all credibility for good.

Manziel is an oitstanding prospect, tebow could not throw the ball.

Watch manziel game film. Its obvious that the anti manziel posters have only seen a few select highlights. Manziel has consistently sliced up secondaries full of now-in-the-nfl players on second and third reads from the pocket. Throwing people open. Those plays WOULD be the highlight plays of any other player. But not with manziel because his spectacular off schedule plays are so amazing.

Most of his 'jump balls' were in 'give up and punt' situations anyway, for most players, so there was little downside. Manziel has the greatest success rate on 3rd and long of any player i could ever find. More than DOUBLE the success rate of cam newton,rg3,or andrew luck in college. An inordinate number of his int's were in this situation as well, and an inordinate number of them were first in the hands of his wr's.

If you have watched any film, manziels passing game is already ahead of most of the greats at equivalent stages of his career. His mental speed and field vision are the best anyone has ever seen. His scrambling abilities are the best anyone has ever seen. His accuracy is elite nfl level. Those 4 things are the most important things for a qb.

The debate with bortles and bridgewater is 'can they become a starter'. The debate with manziel is 'can he become a hall of fame player'

Manziel will go #1, and all you uneducated folks thinking otherwise are just soaking up pre draft drama fluff to keep things interesting.
  #139  
Old 02-17-2014
crazyoldman crazyoldman is offline
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Originally Posted by the seal View Post
Anybody making a tebow comparison with manziel just blew all credibility for good.

Manziel is an oitstanding prospect, tebow could not throw the ball.

Watch manziel game film. Its obvious that the anti manziel posters have only seen a few select highlights. Manziel has consistently sliced up secondaries full of now-in-the-nfl players on second and third reads from the pocket. Throwing people open. Those plays WOULD be the highlight plays of any other player. But not with manziel because his spectacular off schedule plays are so amazing.

Most of his 'jump balls' were in 'give up and punt' situations anyway, for most players, so there was little downside. Manziel has the greatest success rate on 3rd and long of any player i could ever find. More than DOUBLE the success rate of cam newton,rg3,or andrew luck in college. An inordinate number of his int's were in this situation as well, and an inordinate number of them were first in the hands of his wr's.

If you have watched any film, manziels passing game is already ahead of most of the greats at equivalent stages of his career. His mental speed and field vision are the best anyone has ever seen. His scrambling abilities are the best anyone has ever seen. His accuracy is elite nfl level. Those 4 things are the most important things for a qb.

The debate with bortles and bridgewater is 'can they become a starter'. The debate with manziel is 'can he become a hall of fame player'

Manziel will go #1, and all you uneducated folks thinking otherwise are just soaking up pre draft drama fluff to keep things interesting.
Hahaha. Now that there is some funny sh##.
  #140  
Old 02-17-2014
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Troy Chapman Troy Chapman is offline
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Originally Posted by 281Texan View Post
According blah blah blah. Teams list 6' guys in their game day programs as 6'1-6'2. 180lbs, all of a sudden turns into 190. I can guarantee you he isn't 6'..I stood next to him multiple times, and he's MAYBE, MAYBE, 1 inch taller than me. I'm 5-9 to 5-10. And he's maybe 204 fully padded. That **** flak jacket is bigger than he is lol.
Will be interesting, Manziel has guaranteed he will measure 72" at the combine.
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